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Title
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Seeds of Discontent, episode 7 (riots, African Americans, and the future)
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Description
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This is the seventh episode of Seeds of Discontent, the 1968 radio documentary series created by Hartford Smith Jr. and distributed by Wayne State University's WDET in Detroit.
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Creator
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Hartford Smith Jr.
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Date
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1968
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Language
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English
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Subject
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Interviews about riots, African Americans living in Detroit, the future
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Type
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Sound
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Transcription
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Speaker 0 00:00:00 This is the seventh in a series of programs, entitled Seeds of Discontent. Here to present the program is Hartford Smith, junior supervisor of the screening and intake unit maintained by the Michigan Department of Social Services, delinquency rehabilitation programs - Mr. Smith. Welcome again to Seeds of Discontent. On tonight's program, we shall continue our examination of the Negro in America as lived and seen through the eyes of a group of Negro citizens who together represent over a hundred years of Negro history. On last week's program, these gentlemen voice their feelings about why the Negro came north, what he was looking for and what was actually found. Basically, he was attempting to escape the degrading and unjust conditions of the south. And he had hopes of bettering his social and economic status. Although things were better in the, in the, in the north than in the south. The north still fell far short of the promise in most areas of social endeavor, poor housing, menial jobs for many, no jobs for some, for those who succeeded economically the factors of social acceptance and status commensurate with economic status and the society at large was conspicuously missing. The land of the promise then became a concrete and asphalt prison. The specific topic for tonight's program is riots red light districts, and the Negro community, a historical perspective. This topic represents the high water mark in terms of discontent. And it's symbolic of the struggle against dehumanizing social conditions as a prelude or a starting point. Let's consider the following dialogue. Speaker 1 00:01:49 The police department have created an atmosphere which creates hate among the common man. Now living in the city of Detroit, since fence I've been retired. I have been, uh, abused quite a few times by police officers. And, uh, I've had, uh, on two kids and I've had a policeman to come to my house. He searched me, catching me outside of the house in the street, or someone searched me, complicate my keys and going into my house and such my house, which I know was illegal. I've made complaints about it, but nothing ever happened about it. I even talked with the police department about it, and I says, you will never get a unit to your mom to policeman. The policeman said, create hate among each other among the common man, because if I see something that's happened that I would be in a position to her and farming offers. Speaker 1 00:02:48 So, but it's a certain amount of hate that I have for the things that they have did to me, that I would let it do what I wouldn't say anything, tell them no. I've had them to break by hand them to break my door in, looking for evidence of this and that go away with nine, without anything on me, off to jail, take me down and turn me loose and send me back home. And that was wrong. And we knew that was wrong. I've made complaints about it. I have one particular police Sergeant he's retired now that arrested me five times in one month and took me to the police station. And each time he took him to the police station, I had to come back, turn me loose. It was nothing that he could put against me. Or how do you think that made me feel about the police department? Speaker 1 00:03:36 I didn't cry. I didn't put all the police, all the policeman's in the same category, but it makes you have a certain amount of hate of feeling against some policemen till it makes you just set. A police department is no good things like that is bad. And so that's one thing that I always say they should try to create a unity among the common man. And then everybody can get along. But if you see me because I'm not working, or if I got 50 or $60 in my pocket, why did you get the money from? I told him one officer. I says, I worked for 40 years. I says, if I can't have some money in my pocket, it wouldn't been no point in me working with it while I don't have. And I says, well, maybe you got yours in the bank. I got mine in my pocket. And so on like that, when you're doing something wrong, you know, like I said, well, if I'm doing something wrong, you hit me in the police station. They didn't know him at times. You'd haven't found anything. I was doing wrong. Why keep bringing me over? Yeah. So that's just the way. Of course those situations ever lighten up some now in the last year, year or so, but the last, uh, up to two or three years ago, acquisition, I was in a right, in the Polish net up in two or three days. Speaker 2 00:04:55 Well, I wanted to verify something you say, uh, they seem to have a license to pick people up out of the streets from nothing. I mean, you know, the, uh, , uh, whatever you want to call, it seems they find a way to walk past and get over it and come and find a man who is trying to work and make a living and trying to stay out of trouble. Now, this, this, this doesn't own, it comes from the top of the police department some way up there. And then along the line, somebody has got to know about these things and there's somebody up that should be able to stop it. But as you see, it continues, it continues to go on it. And they that's right. It's a policy police department. See, I can see them having these people that have done things, but why come out here and pick up an innocent man that hasn't done anything like he say and put him around if he, if you have none. And anyway, well, you know, somebody's doing something policeman's job is to find out things, not the citizens business to tell him. And they have lost so much faith and confidence in them that they wouldn't tell him even if they knew. Speaker 0 00:06:06 And there's no coincidence then that every major riot of the past five years was triggered by an arrest by a police officer. Aside from the fact that there are bigots and racists and police departments, the same as any other institution of American life, these violently charged feelings towards the police also runs deep into American history and the development of the Negro community, particularly ghetto communities and large urban areas because of restrictions placed on Negroes in the areas of housing and jobs, Negros of different statuses had to live together. Some Negroes, the majority of Negroes were working class men, strivers who were trying to get ahead in the face of overwhelming odds. Some, a minority who were also overwhelmed by social lives, resorted to theft or prostitution in order to survive yet, it is apparent that police departments did not make this distinction. Most Negro communities were earmarked as high crime rate areas, wherever you need grow was treated as a criminal. And as a result, generations of hate and antagonisms were respond. This is merely the spark. However, listen, as these gentlemen, explain their feelings about the conditions of social life and Negro communities over the past 40 years, let's start with red light districts. We've heard a lot of talk about Speaker 3 00:07:34 Bob various red light districts in Detroit, particularly prior to the war. And just afterwards, uh, I wonder if you can just go back and think about a few of those districts, are I remember two in particular, they used to refer to paradise valley. Um, he used to refer to a certain areas, black bottom in your own words, uh, how did these things get to be and just what life was like during those days? Speaker 1 00:08:03 Well, as far as I can, uh, explain about that and that pre-war days, uh, you take the Bray street Erie, uh, all shaved from a far stabbing you all the way down to, uh, well, I, yes, all the way down to about grass shit was considered a red light is three prostitutes were, you know, in and out on all, all day and all night. And that take a year. And, uh, over on the synaptic line that is before the freeways was built St. Ed mine and Hastings street. Those three particular streets was noted for prostitutes. Speaker 3 00:08:51 Where did most Negroes live during those days? Speaker 1 00:08:55 Well, and those days , uh, well from south of, uh, I want to say south of Mitt battery on the back, uh, of course in the twenties, they all lived south of forest. It was only a few, I guess it wasn't half a dozen families above forest avenue in there in their early twenties. Speaker 4 00:09:21 Uh, you asking a question that I wrapped the pattern of, excuse me, have them housing. I think I'd take it. This, the fact that you mentioned about the red light districts and of course we had them, we still have. I think what you were wondering about since this is we're known as red light districts, what happened to the people who were not interested in that type of thing or cash a better way of life or different type of neighborhood to live in and due to the fact that there was a tremendous influx of new gloss to the Northern cities and Detroit in general, because of the industry here, they still had to live in the same areas. Now we had people living as Mr. General, that mentioned about in Hamtramck and you had a few living on the west side. So they have the system is continuously almost throwing the people of different social status together constantly. Speaker 4 00:10:24 Now I don't mean that the other Philadelphia, the reason for some, for some, and in cases of Negro people, I think you find them in all races. Prostitution has been in existence since the days of the Bible before, as long as there have been women and men, and they're not all black, many white, but the white prostitutes don't have to face the same thing as the Negro. Now, I would say that I believe that the people who have these crucial save on the same social level of same thinking, the same type of living, I think that the prefer being together and the other people do now, of course, that's creating a thing among us as girls to feel like they're going to be like a joke that he's got a little better job than you have a moment. So he doesn't like me, but to see the thing or the whole thing, the whole striving, he fought to various out. Speaker 4 00:11:11 So if the Negro, I feel like this is wrong, but when egos who have been advanced, I don't think they should get about ship. Forget about the bullet fella who haven't been able to. And I think when they only made the statement that some of us are responsible, some of us are, but I mean, that's, that's, that's what everybody, that's not a general thing. Oh. And he goes, we're not responsible for their plate. That was first base. I think if it was left for us, we wouldn't have been here as between being here now. And my name wouldn't be what it is. I would have my African name and I wish to think it was, I could look it up and find out because I must be much more proud. Well, you, you spoke with red light districts and prostitution. Speaker 2 00:11:54 Uh, first let's define what constitutes prostitution. Now we all here in this, let's call it ghetto. That's the name that it's been given, you know? And we see that quite often in the news today, what constitutes ghetto and prostitution. What's the cause of it. Where does it come from? Why does it happen? Who are the prostitutes best customers? Speaker 4 00:12:30 They're interested Speaker 2 00:12:32 Who are their best customers? The bar from gross point bought from Palmer woods, bought from St. Clair shores bought from all these big rich white neighborhoods. Why? Because he drives through here and his guy, he picked them up and he deals with them. It isn't the person that lives here that does that. All right. He comes out of his, leaves, his house with his wife and killed him, come down yet and get these girls. This is giving them the idea. Well, I'm hearing this hole. I can't get out of it. I mean, it's going to get something off him. Now. He is the first man and the tomorrow, tomorrow morning is going to his office with his collar and tie and white shirt on and say that Negro has no business out of it. Get all down there. So he sets up boundary lines for you. You never get out of it because you can't have outside that. Why? Because this is his playground. Speaker 2 00:13:32 This is his playground. Now that, I mean, I can go on and bring out a whole long John conversation, but think about it, just think about it. And that's my opinion about the whole thing. Why he keeps you in here in order to use you like you want, he knows what he wants when he wants to find a prostitute, because he knows if he catches outside of this boundary, he knows what the other white boy is going to do with him and far, but as long as he stays here, he isn't interested because of half of the cops picking them up half the time using them themselves. Speaker 4 00:14:07 Yeah. We have some city officials, console, men, council, women, or whatever, would it be that always make an issue about prostitution. And when you say prostitution they're referring to, and then equally, or is because they don't mention anything about what's going on above an eight mile road. And it is there too, but they always want to make some issue about, do something about the prostitutes, but they don't think about anything about the prostitution customers. And I think someone else mentioned that now they want to pass laws and want to do. We'll put a lot of pressure. Well, if they, if they would pass laws to arrest the person who was patronizing patronize, the prostitute that'll do something to break it up. But they don't think about brick passing laws to arrest a person who was really contributing to it because he contributes his dial, his dollar to it. Speaker 4 00:14:59 He's seeking them. They don't go out in his area and ask him to come down into Detroit. He comes to seeking. They need more prostitute and bring his money, but there are no laws. And nobody ever talks about passing a law that will affect both or maybe pay a penalty for both people. So they, they, they, they, they only, the only thing they're doing is protecting time to protect themselves. And this is, this is all political expediency. And you're trying to make people think they're doing something, but they all, this is a same old whitewash. Give them what they want. And the sounds big Speaker 0 00:15:39 Aside from the factors of restricted poor housing, lack of employment and hard times, there was considerable feeling about the white Negro communities were used. As one gentleman has said, Negro ghettos were used as playgrounds. I am sure the anger and emotion was evident in their dialogue. These conditions of social life led to great psychological damage to some Negroes concepts of themselves. And those around them for others, increased motivation to flee, to find something across the boundary line for yet others, the conditions of life meant to stay in fight. Speaker 3 00:16:20 Let's go back to all the riot, uh, during the second world war area. Most of you were living here. Then I wonder if you can just think back then to, uh, some of the causes that you saw them then, and look at the recent, uh, disturbance here in the city of Detroit, uh, recently. Well, who you see as being similar? Do you see there are any differences. You feel that it's pretty much the same story, the same thing that happened, then what differences, if any, do you see? Speaker 2 00:16:53 Well, I see, I see quite a difference. You see the riot and the 43 was created out of pure ignorance, pure ignorance. The riot in 67 was created by conditions, awakening, and tiredness. If you get what I mean now, if you want me to go along, looking for that, explain when the riot broke out in 43, it was more or less entirely by the Steve's hoodlum, hymns, and a chance to blow off steam. Now, we can't say that this one, this time was entirely organized. And in this thing, this time, this thing wasn't broken out just to beat a looting. I mean, I know this and I didn't even participate. I didn't have anything to do with it, but any man would come. And since this thing had been planned and there's no just to get, don't used to try to get away from him. Speaker 2 00:18:04 It had been planned and it had a reason to be planned. You understand, you think, you think these young kids up, you send them over to Vietnam, you send them to Germany, you send them to friends, you send them to different places to fight. I have heard a lot of the young fellows say, why should I die over there? I'm not free year. You know, I got a dime is one of the, I hear well, think about it. Does it make sense? Why are you going fight for somebody else's freedom and can't fight for you all won't fight for your own. You understand? Nah, I'm trying to consummate my whole story in a few words. I, you know, it, it, it, these are facts. Um, I mean, as I see them, I understand now, how would you feel? Just, I mean, you know, your, your, your, your question or not me, but I had to answer a question with a question. Speaker 2 00:18:59 If I possibly can, how would you feel fighting for this man shot and met somebody around pit and robe and tear you house down? Huh? You wouldn't feel very good with you. What does it make sense? Oh, I see your point. You get what I'm talking about? Not he can't live at home yet. He's going over there and fight another nation. Somebody else's country for the white man's home. And he can't live in the north because the white man I'm going to tell you, is that what you're saying is that if he's buying diapers on that rebellion or Ryan past, there was more awareness. It wasn't racism, knowing that they use this expression or race riot, it wasn't a race, right? It's just the tiredness of people on one part awakening on the other and knowing how much he, all his parents had been pushed around all that life. That's what, that's where the awakening comes in. And for anybody's information that when I'm listening to this, I'm, I'll be 54 years old. If I live to see the 11th day of February. And I know what happened before, a lot of these kids that are involved are doing these things. I know a lot of what happened before they were born. So that consummates my story. Okay. Did you have something on there? Speaker 4 00:20:20 Well, yes. I didn't make any mistake. As far as the riots were concerned. And I think I have to do with the gentlemen that the in 42, it wasn't a race riot and the Negro was not necessarily responsible for that. Right? Although he retaliated, you had an influx of white people coming to the north for jobs, same as the Negro, a tremendous amount of Southern whites. And I, and there were a lot of rumors flying and that room was going to do an awful lot of damage in any instance, and their tension was high. And I think even, even a, as you, if you may compare it with the situation now, as far as, as far as work is concerned, I think even then, and he goes, I had a feeling that although they weren't expressive as they are now about going to war fighting, they still didn't have any protection. This is supposed to be home. And they'd say, you know, national Anthem and all that, but it's really, it wasn't meant maybe it meant for us, but we really went to, you never got the year. Speaker 4 00:21:45 We never got the year, the protection from the United States government and all your local governments or people in general and respect have, you should have. So it was an emotional thing and the P and the whites, and then they go to a fighting each other because space needle didn't want to fight someone else. And if he's going to fight, I think it happened. It happened here. And, uh, many things I think at that particular time did contribute to the, to the, to the race riot. It was a Raceway this time. It was not a race, riot, economic conditions. I think I had white man asked me once. Why do you think these things have been happening so much in the last few years? I says, you know, out the Negroes celebrated 100 year emancipation. Speaker 4 00:22:44 I think it was 8, 19 65. I says, now, psychologically, we've been waiting. I can wait 75 years. You can wait 87. You can wait 90. I says, but when it becomes 100 years and things are still bad. I said, you think about that. You have three figures, which psychologically makes a vast difference in your thinking. If you're looking for something for yourself. I said, the very fact that 100 years has passed. I said, and the thinking of the people now is that we waited. We are not going to get it. Even by showing that we deserve it. So you think that you and your, and your actions toward me, you treat me as inferior. You're you make remarks about me as being inferior. So he can think that way, not to prove that I'm inferior to Speaker 2 00:23:45 Prove that I'm a destruction is, but since that's your thinking, then will you treat me? I might just as well do it and make you respect me. I'll make you think, give you something to think about. Well, if I may say this, that I come back in there again, let's refer to history a little bit, as far as I know it, uh, when England, so they say, when the cat stouts came over here, I'm going, I'm going to see it just as I know it, they fought for that freedom from England. They eventually gained that freedom from England. Then they took over this country. Understand. Now this is known. It's the greatest country in the world. I mean, that's, this is the report we get. This is the way we see it. This is the way we hear it. Every day, greatest country in the world, democratic country, every man does what he wants. What you get out of here. Speaker 2 00:24:48 I'll revert nine to this prostitution deal. You get out of here, you get around the city. You see how people are living in this particular neighborhood, uh, around, in this particular part of the city, people stacked on top of one, another, sleeping on the beds, on floors, in the basements and everything else. And you get out around the outer city and you, you find hundreds and hundreds of apartments for rent. Not only that they're building them every day, but you go and try to rent, went up as a black man. You go in and you buy you a house, maybe costs you 45 and $50,000. See how often your windows are broken, how much paint thrown on your house, even if you don't, if it doesn't result in bodily harm toward you, you understand your windows are broken. Crowds is a burn on your lawn. You, your, your house smear with paint, you're 40 or $50,000. Don't mean nothing. Why? Because you got the wrong color. This is the thing that's got to be eliminated before. This is going to be a great country. And I hope everybody in this city, I don't get white, black, whoever. I hope everybody can hear that I'm talking just the way I feel and I'm not pulling punches. Alright. So that's all I got to say. Okay. What about the two riots? The, Speaker 3 00:26:26 You saw in your lifetime are, are, was there maybe earlier incidents that almost grew into some kind of open conflict here in the truck, Speaker 2 00:26:37 Like knowing about it on a number of occasion, I've seen Speaker 1 00:26:44 Things that, uh, would, uh, normally shut off for conflict between the white and black. Now what, wouldn't, what didn't then, because of the fact that there, the call-up man were more, uh, hampered by the police DuPont. And then they, uh, whereas the later years see, then they would just get together and talk among yourselves. The older people you'll see. But as the younger people come along, they come on with what you say, a new idea. He was saying that, uh, the do away with all the things that the old people thought about and why they, uh, was Fred and wanted to be a good citizen, you know, on a song like that. And, uh, their first ride, uh, as I said, was, uh, they said was just, uh, something that just grew up that was on call for all the young. It wasn't wasn't necessary. Speaker 1 00:27:47 It didn't profit, anybody, anything, it didn't that didn't do nothing for us. And it didn't do nothing for nobody else. It created on animosity. And that's, that's about all, but the second ride, uh, what the call, a ride, which wasn't a ride, I guess just grew out over the young set shuttled. People was involved, but the young people coming along, you know, with the new idea and the different ideas and housing condition was bad. And it was living in, in places that a wasn't decent and some couldn't get a job and some would apply for jobs and the jobs that they thought they were qualified for, and they pass them off and trying them down. So you don't want a body of people get together. And then all of them come and sit talking to saying, Hey, you know, get fed up with something something's going to happen one way or the other. So that's just about what I see happening. And that's just about the way I see it. And all that's about the only way I can see it Speaker 0 00:28:55 Next week. Seeds of discontent concludes this historical perspective on Ryan's red light districts and the Negro community. In addition, we will also listen to these gentleman's reflection on the future. You have just heard Hartford Smith, Jr. Supervisor of the screening, and then take unit maintained by the Michigan department of social services. Delinquency rehabilitation programs, seeds of discontent is produced by David Lewis for WDET radio and engineered by David Pierce. This is Wayne State University radio.